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Post by mesper on Sept 25, 2016 15:40:39 GMT -9
Just a bunch of ideas and some "working steps" - from very first draft to almost-ready lineart... However I'm not quite satisfied with the semi-final result! The mount seems to be kinda too small (at least for such a big creature as this particular Warchief), then mount/lizard's tail should be probably significantly bigger/longer - so rather as v.B Then mount's twin-head version (v.A) B-side most probably wouldn't look good... so rather single-head full-profile would be better in this case (like v.C or D)? So also some more "general dynamic" changes would be probably helpful/needed - so the rider/warchief figurine could lean more forward, then mount (and so the whole figurine) could be more uplifted (up-sloping?) perhaps - easiest, however kinda lazy way, is to add some sort of scarp ground beneath:) Some minor changes could be also made to convert this figurine into discrete versions or "mods" - like (after small changes) replacing sword with some spear or banner, then adding orkish-style big shield etc... And of course mount itself could be replaced (but for which one - some fantasy-style raptor-ish or perhaps simply mundane horse?), then of course various helmets, cloaks and other additional/optional accessories could be added (so some possibilities for user-made tweaks or even fully-fledged MOD-KIT?)... Anyway, I'm just sharing with you some "work-in-progress" thoughts'n'doubts - perhaps this one could be released within RPG Heroes sub-series? ...
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Post by jeffgeorge on Sept 25, 2016 17:19:33 GMT -9
Really like your take on orcs. The chief and the mount both look great, but yeah, I agree that they are out of scale to one another a bit. It looks like if Chief Fang straightened out his legs, his feet might touch the ground. How difficult would it be to just scale the mount up a bit?
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Post by wyvern on Sept 26, 2016 10:07:20 GMT -9
Like the orc chief very much. We really need more "realistic" fantasy orcs in paper, as too many (to me) are caricatures, which just don't fit the dangerous archetype they're meant to be in many fantasy RPGs. The mount definitely needs enlarging. Right now, it looks more as if the creature should be mounted on the orc, not the other way round. However, a mount this size would work for a smaller rider - a goblin, say - instead. Alternative orc mounts; difficult to get away from the Tolkienian "big wolf" concept, but the horse idea sounds interesting. Maybe a more robust type, almost of "enlarged pony" proportions, maybe? Or perhaps something like an American bison/buffalo: Not convinced about the "big shield" idea for orcs. I tend to see them as very dynamic fighters who don't really "do" defence, so small shields they can also use as weapons (spiky edge or face boss spikes, for example) might fit better with this. But maybe that's just me
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Post by jeffgeorge on Sept 26, 2016 15:27:34 GMT -9
Alternative orc mounts; difficult to get away from the Tolkienian "big wolf" concept, but the horse idea sounds interesting. Maybe a more robust type, almost of "enlarged pony" proportions, maybe? Or perhaps something like an American bison/buffalo: An orc on a bison would be seriously bad-a$$.
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Post by cowboyleland on Sept 26, 2016 18:03:02 GMT -9
Somebody did orcs on bison. Was it that English guy that used the tequila name? Let me search. . . I was half right: josedominguez once promised a set of 15mm orcs on highland cattle, but I don't think he ever got farther than the one he uses for his avatar.
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Post by mesper on Sept 26, 2016 18:44:29 GMT -9
wyvern and jeffgeorge - fully agree regarding (too small) mount - so work already in progress! But with Bison/Buffalo mount... not sure, perhaps you are both just kidding me? but even so here's kinda surprise for you (vide attached preview:) Orkish Warchief mounted on Zubr (Żubr is our Polish "version" of Bison: European Bison - actually I saw these in real/nature in Białowieża - deep in the Białowieża Forest World Heritage site) Then in background you can find heavy armoured (full plate armour) orkish knight mounted on "big wolf" or "Tolkenian warg" (and now I can see that in this case mount/warg should be also somewhat enlarged, nah!) Then some Warchief figurine details were deleted (like axe at saddle, sword at back), then other details are slightly enlarged or stressed just to bring them out so would be more clear/visible)
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Post by jeffgeorge on Sept 26, 2016 20:54:37 GMT -9
wyvern and jeffgeorge - fully agree regarding (too small) mount - so work already in progress! But with Bison/Buffalo mount... not sure, perhaps you are both just kidding me? but even so here's kinda surprise for you (vide attached preview:) Orkish Warchief mounted on Zubr (Żubr is our Polish "version" of Bison: European Bison - actually I saw these in real/nature in Białowieża - deep in the Białowieża Forest World Heritage site) Then in background you can find heavy armoured (full plate armour) orkish knight mounted on "big wolf" or "Tolkenian warg" (and now I can see that in this case mount/warg should be also somewhat enlarged, nah!) Then some Warchief figurine details were deleted (like axe at saddle, sword at back), then other details are slightly enlarged or stressed just to bring them out so would be more clear/visible) Not kidding you at all...bison are badass. I think they look great under an orc. I was never a fan of canine or feline mounts anyway--I think herd animals are used as mounts all over the world for a reason. Even if it's just that FEEDING a cavalry company of carnivores on the move is impractical, wolf/warg mounts never made sense to me.
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Post by tomwh on Sept 27, 2016 3:13:38 GMT -9
wyvern and jeffgeorge - fully agree regarding (too small) mount - so work already in progress! But with Bison/Buffalo mount... not sure, perhaps you are both just kidding me? but even so here's kinda surprise for you (vide attached preview:) Orkish Warchief mounted on Zubr (Żubr is our Polish "version" of Bison: European Bison - actually I saw these in real/nature in Białowieża - deep in the Białowieża Forest World Heritage site) Then in background you can find heavy armoured (full plate armour) orkish knight mounted on "big wolf" or "Tolkenian warg" (and now I can see that in this case mount/warg should be also somewhat enlarged, nah!) Then some Warchief figurine details were deleted (like axe at saddle, sword at back), then other details are slightly enlarged or stressed just to bring them out so would be more clear/visible) Awesome! I love the Orkish Warchief on the Zubr! That is fantastic!!
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Post by chiefasaur on Sept 27, 2016 3:53:35 GMT -9
I've got the Zubr app. I just enter my location, and in like, 10 minutes, an orc raider on a bison picks me up. It's cheaper then cabs, but smells much worse.
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Post by wyvern on Sept 28, 2016 1:53:49 GMT -9
...with Bison/Buffalo mount... not sure, perhaps you are both just kidding me? Like jeffgeorge, I definitely wasn't joking. D&D has long had herbivores called rothé, which come in both surface and subterranean types, built on similar lines to the bison. Although they tend to be used primarily as food animals, they're pretty mean combatants when threatened (like a lot of herd animals), and I could easily see goblins, orcs and others - including human barbarians - taking to riding them. However, cast miniatures with bison-mounted barbarians has already been done - for example, by Pendraken Miniatures in 10mm scale: Wolves/wargs as mounts is no less impractical than using husky dogs to pull sledges, so I've never had a problem with them as orc and goblin mounts. Pendraken again though opted for wolves as mounts for their goblins, but boars for their orcs, as another alternative. Pendraken went for shaggy ponies as mounts for their hill dwarves. Like the idea of highland cattle as potential orc/goblinoid/barbarians mounts too.
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Post by chiefasaur on Sept 28, 2016 2:15:48 GMT -9
The Trollkin in Hordes rock some pretty gnar-core bison too.
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Post by mesper on Sept 28, 2016 13:06:03 GMT -9
Shield issue<...> Not convinced about the "big shield" idea for orcs. I tend to see them as very dynamic fighters who don't really "do" defence, so small shields they can also use as weapons (spiky edge or face boss spikes, for example) might fit better with this. <...) Small shields which could be used as weapons - sounds OK! Although attached preview shows rather "solid" and big shield - then in this case it could be good opportunity to add some additional/optional various/discrete shields as replaceable ACCESSORIES (thanks to the fact that this figurine is almost perfect for such a simple/easy/smallish "MOD-KIT") Orkish mountHmm... Zubres (aka Bisons) are sort of "noble" animals here (during many centuries only kings have privilege to hunt these animals), so having greenish Orc riding Zubr... nah! So maybe more common Ox or Muflon (or some sort of mix of these - ie Ox with very big, curved horns - kinda Himalaya Yak or something like this) would be more appropriate?
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Post by mesper on Sept 28, 2016 13:26:24 GMT -9
One more thing - SCALE - ie. how big (compared to Bison/Ox) should be Orkish rider? >>>How about these at previews? Then please bear in mind that Warchief is kinda most fierce, threatening and so perhaps the strongest and biggest one among the hoard, so he should be rather big one bad-ass...
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Post by Vermin King on Sept 28, 2016 16:27:37 GMT -9
I think proportion-wise he looks fine. I would like to see the ox look a it more 'bad-ass', though.
When the topic of bison came up, the first thing that came to my mind was 'what about a musk ox?' Shaggy, smelly and not the best temperament
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Post by jeffgeorge on Sept 28, 2016 16:50:16 GMT -9
Wolves/wargs as mounts is no less impractical than using husky dogs to pull sledges, so I've never had a problem with them as orc and goblin mounts. Not to pick nits, but canine mounts would be far less practical than dog sleds, for a couple of reasons. First, there are typically no more than a dozen dogs in a sled team, and usually far fewer. Even if you go with 12 dogs on a team, Siberian huskies weigh about 60 pounds, so you're only feeding 720 pounds of dog to maintain a large sled team. If you accept that a suitable mount for an armed and armored orc would have to be about as big and strong as a warhorse, that puts each mount in the range of 2,000 pounds--going on twice the size of a polar bear. A polar bear needs about 100 pounds of meat a week for maintenance (that is, when it's not fattening up for the non-hunting season), so your warg is going to need at least twice that, especially on campaign when it's hauling about 400 pounds of orc and gear around. So, bottom line, for each warg mount in your horde, you need at least 200 pounds of meat a week. Now, multiply that by the number of mounted orcs in your horde, and you start to see the impracticality of predators as mounts. Doubling back to the dog sled comparison, bear in mind that dog sleds were typically used by solitary hunters or very small groups--not in regions or cultures where large armies ever arose. Also consider that dog sleds are used for transportation in parts of the world where its darned cold--places where meat keeps well, and you can carry food for your team. So even if you can imagine training a single large predator as a mount, to use such beasts as mounts for a cavalry company of even 40 warg-mounted orcs, operating in even temperate regions where you can't carry meat with you (assuming you could accumulate enough to feed them in the first place), you'd need to come up with 8,000 pounds of fresh meat every week just for the wargs, before you start to feed the orcs. Assuming you get 1,000 pounds of edible meat off a cow--which is probably a high estimate--that means 8 cows a week, 32 cows a month, for each company in your horde, for as long as you're on campaign. And in weeks you're not actively conquering farmers who keep livestock to feed your mounts, you're going to have spend so much time hunting deer or other game to feed them that you're not going to be able to make any progress toward your next objective. My quibble with wolves or wargs (or sabre-toothed cats, for that matter, Blizzard!) is not that you can't train them to do the job, but that they are just to expensive to keep fed, especially in military quantities. It's much more efficient to ride herbivores thenmselves--which can eat just about any weed on the side of the road, at least in a pinch--than to feed them to the animals you are riding.
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Post by jeffgeorge on Sept 28, 2016 17:09:15 GMT -9
I think proportion-wise he looks fine. I would like to see the ox look a it more 'bad-ass', though. When the topic of bison came up, the first thing that came to my mind was 'what about a musk ox?' Shaggy, smelly and not the best temperament I thought the same thing--musk ox are shaggy, smelly, and mean. Unfortunately, if you're going to let real-world biology be a factor, they are also small. They look big in nature movies because you never see them standing next to anything you can use for size reference, but from an evolutionary standpoint, they are much more closely connected to sheep and goats than they are like cattle or bison. They average less than 300kg, and just 1.1-1.5 meters at the shoulder, which makes them smaller than small riding horses, and less than half the size of warhorses. Of course, this is fantasy, and if you want to scale them up to 800 or 1000kg so that armored orcs can ride them, no one's gonna say you can't. If you want a real world animal that isn't a bison, but might look right under an orc raider, consider the cape buffalo, or African buffalo. They weigh 500-1000kg, and kill about 200 people a year. The wild water buffalo looks just as scary, and is even bigger, though it may not be quite as mean.
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Post by mesper on Sept 28, 2016 17:51:00 GMT -9
<...> My quibble with wolves or wargs ( or sabre-toothed cats, for that matter, Blizzard!) is not that you can't train them to do the job, but that they are just to expensive to keep fed, especially in military quantities. It's much more efficient to ride herbivores <...> Oh, so probably that's the reason behind my mount (WoW screenshoot: my main, Retri Paladin)
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Post by mesper on Sept 28, 2016 18:04:26 GMT -9
OMG... considering all the "fuss" with more-or-less mundane mounts might be kinda easier if not safer just to get back to "standard" fantasy mounts OK, so here's newer version of mounted Warchief - much bigger "lizard" with some proportions changed (of course some adjustments still needed, then some smallish accessories, like harness, changed saddle-cloth etc should be improved or added - that's just a basic version)
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Post by jeffgeorge on Sept 28, 2016 18:27:54 GMT -9
OMG... considering all the "fuss" with more-or-less mundane mounts might be kinda easier if not safer just to get back to "standard" fantasy mounts My wife wandered through and pointed out that this is all fantasy, so why not just imagine that wargs don't need as much food as real-world predators. My response, "Because that's not realistic!", sounded inane as soon as I said it. Even so, these debates are fun. I remember a long talk back in high school about how many hundreds of square miles of hunting territory it would take to support a single dragon...oh, to be young again! As I said in the beginning, I like your lizard mount a lot, but even at this size, he doesn't look big enough to carry an orc that size very far or very fast. The sequence in the Star Wars prequels in which Obi-wan battles General Grievous and rides the lizard thing pops to mind. Even if your lizard is not intended to be quite so long and snaky as the one Obi-wan rode there, my sense is that this one should still be about 50% larger than you're showing it in the sketch to look capable of carrying that big orc. And why not make it bigger? You're selling a file, not a cast mini--there's no increase in material cost for making a larger figure, and a really freaking big lizard mount under that orc chief would look seriously bad-a$$. (I've been watching too much Drunkens & Dragons lately, obviously...)
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Post by Vermin King on Sept 28, 2016 18:37:41 GMT -9
But seriously, wouldn't 'Feeding the Wargs' be Orc slang for punishment for a minor offense? When the orcs travel in mass, I'm sure there would be no shortage of warriors that committed something that warrants being fed to the mounts
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Post by jeffgeorge on Sept 28, 2016 19:05:51 GMT -9
But seriously, wouldn't 'Feeding the Wargs' be Orc slang for punishment for a minor offense? When the orcs travel in mass, I'm sure there would be no shortage of warriors that committed something that warrants being fed to the mounts If you were planning to use the infantry as warg-chow, eventually you'd have no foot-soldiers left. Sure, you could use that as a threat or a punishment to keep the troops in line, but you'd go through an orc a week for each warg in your cavalry if that were your main supply of fodder for your mounts. If you started the season with 1000 orcs and 100 wargs, by week 10, you'd be out of orcs. I guess they could eat the conquered, but what do they eat between cities? You could round up a few hundred civilians and herd them along as live food, but then you'd have to feed them on the road, at least a little bit, or they will slow the horde down horribly. I still say you're better off with herbivores as mounts...when you need lots of big animals to do the job, you want them as low on the food-chain as possible.
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Post by cowboyleland on Sept 28, 2016 19:36:45 GMT -9
OK so jeffgeorge now has 50 posts under his belt and I have come to realise that he is exactly the kind of nerd that I like. I second the move for bison or cape buffalo for all of the reasons stated above. Also I really like mammoths as mounts when I see them, and woolly rhino's would also be an option. Now I am thinking Sanity Studios experimented with bison mounts for orcs... Quick, Robin, to the Bat-google!!! No, the Sanity Studio site sends me to OBS but they never seem to have released mounted orcs. I am sure there was a promo pick of an orc on bison back on their site at one point. mesper, I think it is up to you to turn this persistent idea into a complete set.
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Post by jeffgeorge on Sept 28, 2016 21:03:33 GMT -9
OK so jeffgeorge now has 50 posts under his belt and I have come to realise that he is exactly the kind of nerd that I like. I second the move for bison or cape buffalo for all of the reasons stated above. Also I really like mammoths as mounts when I see them, and woolly rhino's would also be an option. Now I am thinking Sanity Studios experimented with bison mounts for orcs... Quick, Robin, to the Bat-google!!! No, the Sanity Studio site sends me to OBS but they never seem to have released mounted orcs. I am sure there was a promo pick of an orc on bison back on their site at one point. mesper , I think it is up to you to turn this persistent idea into a complete set. I'm pretty sure that's a compliment, so thanks, leland! (That's a blush emoticon, right? Hard to tell on a skull...) Edit: Oh! And wooly rhinos are da bomb!
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Post by wyvern on Sept 29, 2016 10:07:13 GMT -9
One more thing - SCALE - ie. how big (compared to Bison/Ox) should be Orkish rider? >>>How about these at previews? Then please bear in mind that Warchief is kinda most fierce, threatening and so perhaps the strongest and biggest one among the hoard, so he should be rather big one bad-ass... The obvious "big ox" option would be the aurochs: Wikipedia page link. In terms of the scale question, the current sample orc chief on the ox looks too big for the mount. Yes, a chief orc will be big and fearsome, and consequently he'll also have the pick of the biggest, most fearsome and fastest mounts available! Meanwhile, not wishing to get too bogged-down in the practicalities of wolves/wargs as mounts, my impression from the more sensible fiction is that only a small proportion of any orc force will be so-mounted (in the same way that historical cavalry in general made up relatively small proportions of most European and North American armies, for example). Mounts of any kind need a degree of maintenance of course, but in terms of actual animals horses need considerably more care than wolves. Indeed, horses and other herbivores overall need a far greater amount of food, and also water, on a continual basis than a wolf, which can readily gorge after a large kill, then not eat again for several days, because meat is a much better food source than vegetation for rapid energy production and energy storage. Plus wolf packs survive pretty well in larger groupings in the wild (grey wolf packs of 15-30 animals are not uncommon, for instance). Couple of links if anyone's interested: Equine nutrition Wikipedia page and a page on wolf hunting and feeding from the International Wolf Center's website. A search online will bring up lots more
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Post by mesper on Sept 29, 2016 12:56:59 GMT -9
Wasn't able to reply earlier (some inet service provider issues - so my connnecctioooon waaass soooo sloooow for couple hours - it's second time this year!!! just can't imagine what "disaster and tragedy" it would be without ANY connection at all LOL - O TEMPORA... Now, I like MAMMOTH idea very much! (actually I've already some sort of "mammoth" already done - vide PERMES " WarBeasts" set (with MOD-KIT) - available at... oh, you know where it can be found... So... Could be possible to re-work this armoured mammoth into "regular" one - perhaps something like the one at preview (Orc Warchief MkV) Of course most of the mount's armour should be removed (and some real ear added), then the beast itself should be more furry?! Could be doable and funny! Anyway - it seems that MORE than one or two Warchiefs could or should be released... if not WHOLE mounted hoard?! Funny thin is that... Warchief was supposed to be just a single "finisher" within PERMES RPG-HEROES sub-series, as there are at least two orkish cavalry/mounted sets released: and But OK Perhaps there could coexist Warchief (RPG-Heroes series) and some other orkish HEAVY CAVALRY units (within regular PERMES Fantasy series) mounted on various big animals >>> NEW/FRESH IDEA - what about ORCS mounted on FLYING MOUNTS???
(perhaps not so fresh - there might be some air/airborne-like orcs units somewhere, but I'm not aware of any at the moment) ..
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Post by Vermin King on Sept 29, 2016 13:19:27 GMT -9
Orc on a super-sized pteranadon? That could be interesting
Or would a bat or raven or buzzard be more appropriate?
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Post by Punkrabbitt on Sept 29, 2016 14:32:05 GMT -9
I like the bison mount. Just sayin'...
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Post by mesper on Sept 29, 2016 15:40:30 GMT -9
Orc on a super-sized pteranadon? That could be interesting <...> YES!Orc on some prehistoric "pterodactyle-style" mount - sounds just great!!! Could be both FLAT and 2.5D version (with discrete wings, so user can bind/shape them) Not promising but... But... First things first: Warchief is #1 in the row (err... anyway, it would be kinda bad if not dangerous idea to try to move him away;) So, here's VERY FIRST colouring attempt. No textures, no SFX, no shadows/lights etc here... just plain flat colours. Actually it's probably not the best move to show such a "semi-finished" figurine, but as promised - from scratch/draft to line-art and further fully-fledged figurine... // accessories like banner and shield are optional, then the "earth/ground" layer is provisional
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Post by Punkrabbitt on Sept 29, 2016 18:13:12 GMT -9
It looks a bit like a Tattooine Dewback as featured in Star Wars Episode IV: A New Hope.
I approve. I am stupidly sentimental about Star Wars.
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Post by jeffgeorge on Sept 29, 2016 22:16:59 GMT -9
Meanwhile, not wishing to get too bogged-down in the practicalities of wolves/wargs as mounts, my impression from the more sensible fiction is that only a small proportion of any orc force will be so-mounted (in the same way that historical cavalry in general made up relatively small proportions of most European and North American armies, for example). Mounts of any kind need a degree of maintenance of course, but in terms of actual animals horses need considerably more care than wolves. Indeed, horses and other herbivores overall need a far greater amount of food, and also water, on a continual basis than a wolf, which can readily gorge after a large kill, then not eat again for several days, because meat is a much better food source than vegetation for rapid energy production and energy storage. Plus wolf packs survive pretty well in larger groupings in the wild (grey wolf packs of 15-30 animals are not uncommon, for instance). Couple of links if anyone's interested: Equine nutrition Wikipedia page and a page on wolf hunting and feeding from the International Wolf Center's website. A search online will bring up lots more I was going to write a whole post about food chains, apex predators, and the ratio of predator and prey populations, but I'm pretty sure we can (and will) go back and forth on this forever and never convince each other. Ultimately, my wife was right--it's fantasy, why not just say whatever it takes to make the cool thing feasible? Orcs ride magic wolves that eat mystical beans that fall from the sky, or whatever. Arguing back and forth about which imaginary animal makes a more realistic mount for an imaginary race of savage raiders is ultimately kind of pointless. So, with a tip of my imaginary hat, sir, I yield...
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