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Post by paladin on Mar 30, 2011 10:50:13 GMT -9
Ups, this is terrible, revgunn. I am sorry for your fingers. Maybe you and your dogs were very lucky at the same time. Dog fighting between those breeds seems to be dangerous. Sounds very Wild West to me. Take your time to heal. The art can wait. Best wishes for your health, paladin
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Post by paladin on Mar 15, 2011 13:27:17 GMT -9
Yip, right hackbarth. I prepare a simple webpage for my paper mini stuff on my own. I only wanted to hint at the "hidden" costs of forum tec: time to CONTROL ;D user content and bandwidth cost, when successful. I am not the guy, who would showcase everything on his own forum (no torture, no porn e.g.), so I had to control content too. This could be enervating. Also, content rating and legal responsibilities of forum owners are very diffuse and complex in Germany. You risk legal punishment for not protecting underaged persons against your "adult" stuff. Maybe this is the case for "proboards" too !? Very fine mods, hackbarth, by the way ...
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Post by paladin on Mar 15, 2011 12:54:28 GMT -9
Ok, Sirrob. If you can see BOTH hands of the lich (left one a bit more shadowed), then he should be fine.
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Post by paladin on Mar 14, 2011 16:03:32 GMT -9
;D I feel honored. But my style takes time (6 hours for the lich). I see the problem, that people want to play with Monthly Hoard topic minis and they don't fit very well stylewise. In the future I will showcase some more of my minis perhaps on an own thread - and then without any compromise, but within forum rules .
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Post by paladin on Mar 14, 2011 15:38:33 GMT -9
LOL. Thank you, Reivaj for your encouragement. I will try to submit something to Wild West (interesting topic). I want to work in YOUR shaman style. Much simpler and clearer. I have to try this. Also your method of collecting a database of parts and face expressions as vectors is interesting for series of minis.
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Post by paladin on Mar 14, 2011 15:20:19 GMT -9
Wow ! Definitely old-school. okumarts, yes, that's the link. There you find the old Citadel Compendium I (with 1st edition Warhammer rulesets). revgunn, there is one page, which shows "Goat headed Ogres" (! ;D), some forefathers of your beastmen, maybe ... . Very expressive and aggressive. I like them.
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Post by paladin on Mar 14, 2011 15:08:42 GMT -9
Cool. My first mini in the hoard. But of course, the Lich is still much too dark. I think, I have a problem in my toolchain: old samsung 750p, which I tried to gamma-correct a while ago, cause prints were also much too dark. I have now a custom monitor profile I use with GIMP. But still those problems. I think, the PNG-Lich on the Hoard thread is lighter on my monitor, isn't he !? How do you guys see him on your monitors ? Lighter ? Darker ? Thanks for your efforts, Sirrob. Hmh. Comparing the lich with your and Reivaj's excellent work, I have to think about parduz' argument of more-fitting-in style choice.
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Post by paladin on Mar 13, 2011 14:37:33 GMT -9
powerful !!! I can feel the spirit. Yes, this convinces me more and more to try a clean vector approach ... . His face is astonishing. And those feathers striking. I think, it's the best human mini I've seen from you so far, Reivaj. I think, I have to get somehow to this level of abstraction. It's difficult for me.
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Post by paladin on Mar 13, 2011 13:07:26 GMT -9
I see.
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Post by paladin on Mar 13, 2011 12:49:02 GMT -9
@reivaj, yip ! Sorry for my tip-talk . How do you work in Inkscape ? Do you scan your work into the comp - or do you start from scratch with freehand pen tool or shapes/forms ?
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Post by paladin on Mar 12, 2011 15:24:49 GMT -9
LOL
Isn't it funny, how you can shift the archetypes through the genres ?
I've thought of CW Veterans. Would fit my grim and gritty attitude ;D.
Or a man of the mountains/fur trapper with a long rifle. Mad Doc aka Klaus Kinski.
Don't know, if I have time. And it would be no Saloon/French Concon Girl.
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Post by paladin on Mar 12, 2011 11:21:19 GMT -9
Oh, nice, Reivaj. I have to take a closer look ... . I like shamans in general very much, because of this nature-animal-connection. I recognize eagle, bear, wolf, leopard shamans . Cool claw-type equipment/weapon. I know, the eagle shaman wanna fly, but be careful with his arm-length. Both are much too long. Also take care of the shoulder/upper-arm region of the leopard man. You could draw it a bit higher. Yes, I think, your arms are too long in general. E.g. right arm of the wolf man. Or legs too short. One of the both. Maybe you should use a good anatomical reference. A stick figure is sometimes sufficient. But you can also prepare your own vector-stick-figure in Inkscape using anatomical schemes from the web. Then you can use it for each of your projects. It's easy. Just work the same way as in your Bug project. Keep it up !
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Post by paladin on Mar 12, 2011 10:55:26 GMT -9
I have found one page of the Citadel Compendium I - 1983 ! I suppose, this gem is a bit of Warhammer history (I for myself know nearly nothing about Warhammer tradition ...). This might be interesting for you. The problem is: I can't upload a pic here technically - no menu function to do that !?
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Post by paladin on Mar 12, 2011 9:14:00 GMT -9
For example, you get this detail level in actual print size no, in 300dpi blueprint by pure 2.5D painting. Attachments:
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Post by paladin on Mar 12, 2011 8:44:04 GMT -9
revgunn, I agree. Arion Games' poser stuff is not the greatest in terms of 3D, but sufficiently good for 30mm worlds. That's Graham's trick. I think, there is a great potential of 3D-modeling, if you are working in a low detail level with fast results. But you still have to be a good modeller. There is also the whole greyzone of 2.5D-painting and bump/material-effects. Stony terrain, though.
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Post by paladin on Mar 12, 2011 8:30:51 GMT -9
okumarts, yes, it's all about clearness/readability/information or the "I need new glasses"-problem. But it's kind of strange: I have seen 28 mm paper minis of reenactored WWII-soldier-pics (real life photography). I have found them rather convincing. Same to Star Wars film shots as paper minis, or (most frustrating to paper-mini-painters) photos of D&D-minis/metal minis from the web. They could destroy the whole handdrawn biz. Good luck with your cardgame, looks really ripe for the market, as usual. So, we need a large enough crowd loving comic art. Because it's more or less comic art I have seen here on the board - in different tastes, styles and workmanship. @stephen, WWG's minis are very well crafted and quite expressive. Though typical Peter-Pan-comic-stuff (I have seen their pirates lately).
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Post by paladin on Mar 12, 2011 6:44:15 GMT -9
Looks good, jose. And in 15 mm scale the elf would not take much more detail. It's the modular approach of single element combinations which Jim Hartman tried with mixed results. Sometimes the figures get a bit stiff and awkward because of the mismatching line flow. It sucks the life out of the mini, or you would need much more thoughts about matching parts. If you are a programmer, you can automatize the whole process of part combining though. There is one and only approach to mini-design, that is unbeatable and brutally fast in regard to economy. It's 3D-design like the work of Graham Bottley of "Arion Games". I saw him cranking out Traveller characters in 15 minutes. But only because of his vast database of prepaired and PREPAID model parts. It's a business of investment and fore-front-costs. Personally I don't like all of his designs. There are major problems with larger creatures, because the models are not good. Good models would be too expensive for him to resale as a paper mini. So the technique is limited and not as charming and flexible than real drawing/painting skills. If you had to model all the models by yourself, boy, you had to be a very fast (and excellent) 3D artist. BUT, as we all know, Graham maybe the only one, who was/is successful with his solo mini venture for a long period of time now. Some customers on RPGnow wrote, "it's still the industry standard". That's a matter of taste. The masses though could be leaning towards gritty realism with natural proportions, lighting and coloring. They're used to computer gfx. Look at Graham's range of historical minis. If you want to achieve those effects by painting, it would take lightyears. And maybe only okumarts could try this anyway . So there are two major stylistic schools: handdrawn and 3D rendering. I prefer the first, but not in any case. I wonder, why Graham has no link to his work on this site. Too "gritty" . Wrong information. On the homepage he's linked.
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Post by paladin on Mar 12, 2011 5:58:53 GMT -9
I've yet to see a paper mini that had more graphic content than your average perfume advert. ... The argument over whether nudity or violence is more damaging isn't really an argument. It's violence, but for some reason our culture has evolved to the point where horrific, violent images are somehow less of a problem that a hint of nipple or a navel. ... I bet Darkmook would get more complaints about his cheerleader than his Hodder blood dripping machette wielding maniac. Well and wise spoken, jose. I couldn't agree more with you. It's quite a phenomenon, not in the US alone. We are all living in a permanent condition of daily WAR, business-wise or really in a REAL WAR. Somehow, sexuality (or love ?) is a danger for this worldwide state. People are controlled not only by their living standards and income levels, but especially by their emotions and natural needs. It's a very old problem of controlling mindsets and feelings. Sexuality means pleasure, hedonism and fearless lust of life aka freedom. That's dangerous to a disciplined worldwide power machine of money and politics. That's why greek male politicians of ancient Athen forbade womens' wild orgies of Dionysos BY LAW. But that's a bit off-topic and not the whole story, of course. I think, modules/rules/minis-bundling is in general a good idea (I've looked at Paizo's minis a while ago. They're really funny, but also very crude, aren't they ). BUT, as I've already written above, you are referencing your minis to a specific system/product and THAT makes them specific in the reception of the customers too. So you build a niche product, even if your minis are very generic and useful for a wide audience. It's a problem of marketing strategy. If we are talking about the masses, then there are only three to five game systems of relevance worldwide. Of course, it's never impossible to be the breakthrough system/game of the decade, like Magic was in the 90ties. But then we're talking about the market for games/rule systems and not their accessoires, like gfx, gameboards and minis. That's a whole different topic - and a much harder one than mini-production. Game design and marketing needs an epic breath of time, work, intelligence, courage. That's even more true for computer games. Try to write a simple, but effective dungeon crawl for Flash. You will cry, once in a while.
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Post by paladin on Mar 12, 2011 4:53:24 GMT -9
This really reminds me of early 80ties drawings in metal minis' catalogues of that era. Cool. The teeth are not too bad, by the way.
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Post by paladin on Mar 11, 2011 13:33:58 GMT -9
So you are transferring horror+sex to this thread ... @stephen, if you are confident, that you can handle the microscale holoprojectors, then you should build one unit in 20 to 30 min. My testbuild in the pic is only a B/W laserprint, so I made the pics B/W too. That adds to the atmosphere, that is not too much appreciated here by others ;D. Vermin King, one pic shows, what could happen, if your Special Force is not aware of the surroundings ... . jose, sex could sell, if it follows some rules : 1. Only show sex, if it's supporting storytelling or character (e.g. Cimmerian Slave Girls, sadistic Drow-Princess, the infamous AD&D Tavern Prostitute etc.). 2. Never show sex for its own sake (aka chainmail-bikini-syndrome), cause this gets annoying and boring quickly - or even distasteful as cowboyleland correctly termed it. Of course, you could feel, that Slave Girls are distasteful anyway, but then the whole genre of e.g. Heroic Fantasy is it.
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Post by paladin on Mar 10, 2011 23:45:55 GMT -9
stephengroy, yeah something like that. Robot Chicken ? (the internet is full of wisdom) revgunn, I think we need some sandbox for our own, yes. At least more tolerance towards mature things. I am not experienced with forum tec, though. Could be very time-consuming and costly. @cowboy , be glad, she's not moving her booty in the holo still shot. It would crack your screen. And let me tell you, that a well-shaped booty is "useful in non-violent situations as well as violent ones". And THAT is really a matter of taste ;D.
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Post by paladin on Mar 10, 2011 14:10:12 GMT -9
stephengroy, well, "cthuloid" is a bit exaggerated. It's too nice for that. Look at the Monthly Hoard of Feb. You will get the message. So, what you and others, like hackbarth and maybe okumarts, are suggesting, is a place for "adult" stuff on a fantasy art forum, right ? The whole discussion is a bit weird for me, because modern fantasy and scifi in its mature, popular form has never been for kids.
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Post by paladin on Mar 10, 2011 13:47:03 GMT -9
cowboyleland, my "lifeform" was actually a cynical joke and no more original than a booty girl, though much easier to draw. The main actor of the whole concept is the holovisual unit itself, not its display of data. Only verminking got it, thinking of it as a decoration set for starbase tiles. That's what it was designed for ... . Remove the dancer and the lifeform, put another mini on top - and you have a whole different story. You wrote: "In addition, when revgun drew the nipply gunfighter, it implied she had skills with the gun, probably nerves of steel and and a cool head to boot. Holodancer just sells images of her booty." That says it all. The whole dilemma of violence-versus-sex in two sentences. That's all the problem. You value gun skills and nerves to kill higher than a well-shaped booty. And you could actually talk to her, cause the unit has audio-feedback. My dancer has a mind and brain too. Don't look down on her. She is an unarmed civilian (hoard topic), and she is earning good money. Her customers, mostly military personnel, pay. It's a different story, you know. What would you say about an archetypal Saloon Girl !? Or a Tavern Prostitute ... . About the "style"-question: censorship to form a streamlined "look & feel"
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Post by paladin on Mar 10, 2011 10:47:07 GMT -9
Oh, reading jose's description of beastmens' anatomy, I would say, nasty, blasphemic stuff, revgunn ;D. Creatures so degenerated, they are unable to walk properly ? Nasty indeed. Maybe you should erase the biceps contour line of the left arm. Just form the muscles by shading. Keep it up. They will look great.
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Post by paladin on Mar 10, 2011 10:37:46 GMT -9
Ok. Sounds good. Don't know, what you are feeling about this, but I got the impression today, that I am moving and posting in a more commercial environment, than I could imagine, e.g. Monthly Hoard.
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Post by paladin on Mar 10, 2011 10:04:12 GMT -9
perfect, cowboy ! The white trim is additional, bouncing surface light ;D - it gives additional contrast. Looks perfect. They pop out. I've seen Patrick as "Bhoritz" once again online. Maybe you should send him a private message to ask what he's thinking about the republishing/modding thing !? Just a suggestion. Cause it could be important, if the whole stuff is promoted on Nik's website etc. jose, wrong thread !? ;D
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Post by paladin on Mar 10, 2011 9:53:28 GMT -9
Oh boy. Parduz, I think we understand each other perfectly. Did Nik say, that my "style" (in your sense) would not fit the forum !? Nik and labrat gave me positive feedback, when I posted my Lich Cleric in January Hoard. Very different, no-line-art, painterly, high-detail style, also very dark and gritty. Like Warhammer meets D&D. I think, the hair flow of my dancer does not follow her bend spine in a way it should. Beside that, she's not too bad (technically). It's typical B/W-ink-line-art with a monochrome color wash, though very detailed for her size. But as I work in 300dpi, you get alot detail even in 30 mm. Every pixel is printed, don't forget. Actually I can work much grittier than this (you have not seen any zombies of mine yet, maybe, that's better ... ;D). What about Tommygun's Manga- and MTV-style drawings/collage (of bobb and horror) !? They do not fit the Hartman/Sanity Studios-style at all. And Imperfect style is a whole different planet (which I personally like very much, cause of its childrens' book feel). No one can draw like okumarts can, by the way. Etc. So, if Monthly Hoard is a promotion tool for Sanity Studios to further THEIR business (which I can understand, because they bought the page) in a distinct and only "style", then it's no place for me.
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Post by paladin on Mar 10, 2011 8:18:15 GMT -9
I meant that the Beast guys were offensive and I wanted to draw them... Sometimes my humor doesn't come across here.... or I write badly, one of the two.... Ah, sorry ;D. Now I got it, I think. I am not an English native speaker, of course. You mean, it's a fact, that Beastmen are offensive as hell in the Bible Belt - and that's the reason for a lot of fun in drawing them explicitly !? Ok, that's the opposite of my blah,blah. revgunn, you are dangerous ! ;D
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Post by paladin on Mar 10, 2011 8:07:02 GMT -9
I hope you don't feel it was a waste of time because it's not in the Forum HOARD. ... On the topic, I think it would be good to to clarify that HOARD submissions are a bit more strict because I am putting them up on my website and promoting it. Hi nikloveland ! No, I don't feel, it was a waste. It's still on my harddrive . But I wanted to submit something, so I was forced to rework it. Ah, ok. Now THAT's something I get immediately ! I thought, Monthly Hoard would be a controllable all-inside thing for interested members and forum visitors. Thanks for your clarification, Nik ! If you say "more strict", then I understand, that my Holo Dancer crossed the line of appropriateness.
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Post by paladin on Mar 10, 2011 7:39:23 GMT -9
Thanks for the clear statements, boys ... . First I want to say: when I asked for (secret) wishes and ideas of appropriateness, I was less interested in the effects of my Holo Dancer (though feedback makes me always happy ;D), but in your general stance to this whole dilemma of porn/noporn/gore/nogore etc. But of course, you write about my mini, so I can hear your voices ... Parduz, you're right in saying, that Nik just follows Jim's footsteps in regard to forum rules. I remember having read, that it was a condition of Jim's sale contract to not change the forum rules. But as we all have agreed upon, that "sexually suggestive" is a very subjective thing, so the forum rules need more definition. It's very disappointing for artists like me to find out the limit by try-and-error. I think, it's Nik's turn to clarify the rule-set and to clarify HIS stance, so that others could understand his decisions. Otherwise there will be no communication here on a public forum, which was intended by Jim as a COMMUNITY of desperados and frontier artists, exploring difficult and unknown terrain. You wrote: "He [Nik] felt that it was not appropriate to the style he wants for the forum." Wait, are you talking about ART style, or THEMATIC style !? If it's the "grunginess/grittiness/darkness" of my SciFi-realism, that upsets Nik, then I got the function of "Cardboard Warriors" totally wrong. Then it's not a field of exploration and exchange, but a streamlined venture. This will not work in the long run. There is no party without guests. And actually I don't feel like a guest, when I post something here. I feel like a contributor. I wanna feel like that. Now, parduz, what you write about my mini, makes me seriously happy , because I count alot on your sharp (comic-trained) eyes. Don't you think, Holo Girl's spine was broken . I wanted to work in your's and Satrek's favour and flattened her boots, but you cannot satisfy every fashion taste. So Eros is not Eros for everyone. That's why I've written, it's hard to do that stuff effectively. It's very subtle and subjective. You wrote:"But it was "dirty" enough (i mean, it was suggesting a dirty setting) that i feel a bit surprised to have seen it in the hoard. And this is just MY feeling, and not a judgement in any way." Ok. Maybe, I've lost my gut feeling, what is "dirty" and what is acceptable tame. Could be my fault. But I guess, you felt surprised, because you got used to the overall tameness, where revgunn is criticized for cowgirls' nipples. Come on ! revgunn, thanks. Maybe we have a very similar taste ;D. You wrote: "I'm a degenerate. My work is the reason this thread even exists. I kinda feel good about that honestly." No, you are not, or you don't know, what degeneration is. But you should feel good about your work and this thread. As okumarts pointed out, it's most important. It sets the frame, we as artists could work in - or not. You wrote: "I find Chaos(tm) Beastmen(tm) offensive as h**l. So I'm thrilled to draw them. There WILL be some offensive mini's. Count on it. ... Well, Beastmen are degenerated. But are they offensive !? Only in a fundamentalistic Christian point-of-view of no return. If you have ethical problems with Beastmen, then never draw Orcs, Goblins, Kobolds whatever. Never play D&D and all the rest. Free your mind, man, what are you talking about ? I feel the grip of 80ties anti-D&D-campaigning ("Don't talk to this brain-washing Dungeon Mistress (sic !). Only Jesus will save you !") on your brains ... . You wrote: "Art is supposed to shake people a little. Make the viewer feel something. You succeeded, so feel good about that. I respect the people and the artists here, so I do it their way." Yes, without a little bit of shakin' & feelin', it's no art at all. I think every artist here would have a hard time to copy styles and tastes of others. That's self-castration - and not the purpose of art. You should do it on your own way, or you will loose the gift of art. Respect for others should not be contrary to your expression as an artist. cowboyleland, you wrote: "I didn't like the holodancer, rubbed me the wrong way somehow and I don't know why." So you felt offended/annoyed/angry !? (My dictionary says that.) Sorry for that. I understand, that there could be problems, if children are watching. But you liked my Lovecraftian version, right ?! ;D Ok. Nuff of that. My main concern about this whole topic is, that I feel, that there are significant cultural/philosophical/theological/psychological differences. I am from Germany, home of a very strict puritanism in the PAST. But today !? There are alot documentaries and academic research about the whole violence/sex-imbalance of modern culture and media. It's not restricted to the US, but I think, the roots of puritanism are deeper in the US than elsewhere.
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