shep
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Post by shep on Nov 22, 2019 12:57:37 GMT -9
There are many misconceptions about crowdfunding in general out there, those Rhannon explained being just a few of them. On the other hand, I think, okumarts got a little bit lost in the dimensions of his own product. Stupid as it sounds, you could simply have asked the backers, how they would've liked those adventure modules to be – either add-ons for the tabletop game with hints how to run them as RPG quests, or as full-fledged RPG modules with bonus tiles and minis for the tabletop game. Your community would certainly have given you more than enough input for a thought-through decision. Either way, David, you'll do the right thing to finally finish the pledges in the best way you can. See it this way, that is much more than Palladium did with their ill-fated Robotech tabletop game KS. Should I ever do a KS, I won't start the thing before I have everything ready for mass production... |
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Post by mproteau (Paper Realms) on Nov 22, 2019 13:20:50 GMT -9
Ugh. I've typed like a dozen paragraphs on this subject, and I refuse to click the button to post any of it. I 100% agree with Parduz on this one, and while Rhannon 's opinions are valid, they don't reflect my own. If a Patreon (and I run one, so I hold myself to this) makes a promise of a deliverable and someone signs up based on that, they the Patreon needs to deliver. If a Kickstarter makes claims of deliverables upon successful funding, and they aren't delivered, I feel slighted. I backed Dave's Kickstarters at the highest level that made sense for me. I went with "The whole enchilada" on the Save the Day Kickstarter. It was mostly to support Dave. I love Dave. I'll always support Dave. I backed the Darkfast Dungeon Kickstarter as hard as I could, too. But, the Kickstarter made promises of products and deliverables. This is the point where I start to type more paragraphs that I get emotionally invested in and then delete them, so I'll stop that cycle and just post what I've written so far! |
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shep
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Post by shep on Nov 22, 2019 13:49:25 GMT -9
In every crowdfunding, the emotional investment of the backers is underestimated by the producers/artists. You get into less trouble, if you are totally transparent with what you do and where you put the money, than if you just grab the cash and disappear into your alchemist's kitchen to brew your stuff. Watching the crowdfunding circus for some years now, I came to the conclusion, that as a producer you run into much less trouble as long as you are open about everything.
Backers seem to get overly excited about crowdfundings that keep their progress secret, only to be disappointed in the end, when their expectation carried them away to a point that can no longer match the finished products. So, a producer should also be as open as possible, to keep their backers excitement in line with what was promised in the crowdfunding.
And, like I said above, having kind of a headstart is always helpful, too...
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Post by okumarts on Nov 22, 2019 14:40:48 GMT -9
I had consulted folks regarding the adventures and heard that this was fine, but I knew it wasn't going to make people like Parduz happy. It seemed to be a good compromise at the time and I just plowed ahead, producing two books and sending them off. Parduz made and makes some good points about his expectations and I should respect that.
Many life events and changing demands of work certainly screwed over my "best-made plans" and have slowed me down, but I am plugging away to finish it all. I understand it's been frustrating and disheartening and I've seen similarly timed Kickstarters call a mulligan and move along, but I am still very motivated and actively working to finish these things. I think releasing the products independent of commercial releases would speed up the process for me. That's what I'm going to start doing with some leftover Save The Day work and now Darkfast Dungeons as well. I'm very proud of my back catalog and need to remember that there is a list of almost finished work that would take little time to finish and release. It's time to get those items off my hard drive and out the door without worrying about the trade dress, etc. stuff that just seems to slow down and complicate the projects.
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Post by Parduz on Nov 22, 2019 14:44:55 GMT -9
Wow. Ok, let me make a premise: i don't know how my english sounds. I struggled in writing my post 'cause i felt i didn't pass the right meaning i wanted. So, if you feel that i attacked Dave, sorry, i was not. I was expressing myself and, if you want, arguing with OkumArts, not Dave. There's a difference. I (virtually) know him from the first day he comes here and i find him nice and enormous talented. I don't have any problem with Dave The Human  I have complains for OkumArts The Company. My problem is in the business field, not in the human one.
Also, i think i've been polite and correct (i did'nt want to be anything else). Again sorry if this is'nt true, but then pls explain me where i've been rude 'cause i don't want to repeat such a mistake.
Also 'cause from the answer from Dave i don't get any clue of having been rude, or offensive, or ... "too much demanding" (i don't have the right word).
I see this as another reason why I don't think I am a good candidate for doing a kickstarter or patreon. As mentioned elsewhere, meeting expectations that are constantly evolving is not something that I would be good at. I don't know what are the evolving expectations... i think i've bought (yes, bought) the "cards for all the published miniatures", i don't have any other expectation other than get cards to play DFD with the other miniatures i have. (Well, to be honest i have a slightly expectation that the stats are somewhat playtested, or at least that they are a good educated guess, but i see how this can be even harder than drawing the cards, so i will never complain about unbalanced things ). I'd like to smile if I wasn't embarrassed by the human limits I see looking around. I think i don't get what this sentence means. Would you like to explain it? Even in italian, if i'm the only that did'nt get it. Mainly because many people consider [...] a kickstarter as if it were a pre-order placed on an online store. [...] With our pledge we share the vision of a project and the attempt to achieve it. We are not buying anything. If you think you want to buy something you can always go on the OBS websites or on Amazon. I'd agree if the KS was something like "These are the rules, with your pledges we will see where we will go and what more i'll be able to publish". It was not, it was a multi-level pledge, with clearly stated products (even illustrated) and detailed descriptions about what you'll get and for how much. I don't think i'm asking .. no, complaining for something that was'nt planned or stated. Or you can invest your $ 5 on a banana cargo. [...] Obviously this is only my personal thought on the subject, not a my judgment about other thoughts. These two sentences are not going well together, so i'll ignore the feeling of you being sarcastic, admit that i don't get what you meant and asking what was the point of the banana cargo. mproteau (Paper Realms) : thanks for explaining my toughts in true english [...]You get into less trouble, if you are totally transparent with what you do and where you put the money, than if ... Well, i wrote a couple of emails and a couple of private messages to Dave in these years, and got answers (in terms of when the product should have been available), so i have nothing bad to say about Okumarts being open. I can say there's delays, not that i did'nt get answers. In general I get what you mean, anyway: i followed an handful of games on BGG which have been demolished by the KS process (one of them i even playtested before being published, and i did'nt pledge for none of them) and yes, the crowd can be really harsh if you're not communicative. Again: OkumArts always answered, and i don't think that i've never been harsh, rude, offensive or even hostile. Actually, my last post here is the only one containing complains instead of questions, 'cause i think that 5 years are a bit of a stretch. Don't get me wrong: i make music, i compose, and i've never finished a piece going from the beginning to the end. After a while i get tired of it, i have "dirty ears", so i NEED to abandon it for at least two or three months, and then going back to that piece when i forgot how it is and with "clean ears". I'd guess that -in different forms- it is the same of everyone making art: you need variations and to kill routine. So, i'm more than prone to give to Dave some slack. I'm just saying that i can have compositions that are'nt finished in 30 years 'cause i did'nt take money from anyone, and i did'nt declare any dead-line to anyone, while Okumarts did and so i feel it should obliged in some way. That's all and i still don't have any bad feeling for Dave or OkumArts. |
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Post by Parduz on Nov 22, 2019 14:51:49 GMT -9
Just 'cause i was writing while Dave posted, i want to add that we're still talking about games, miniatures, pieces of papers: to me this means that we can debate as much as we like but in the end to me nothing here is more important that real life, so really, i'm just the same Parduz i have been: pedantic perhaps, but chill |
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Post by wyvern on Nov 22, 2019 14:56:37 GMT -9
I fully agree with mproteau (Paper Realms) regarding both Patreon and KickStarter projects. If I want to give someone money to support them and their endeavours, I'll do that, but both Patreon and KickStarter are BUSINESSES, not CHARITIES, so there is a definite covenant here between the creators and their supporters that the supporters will be provided with the materials they've signed-up and paid for, barring serious problems (and that IS what you're doing on Patreon as well if you read the creators' statements of intent). Remember too that in both cases a significant part of all monies paid is going to the business owners, not the creators; again, these are NOT charities. While some people's expectations may end up too high for various reasons, especially for KS projects, the main purpose of KickStarter is to create and sell products. It's not some vague means of getting cash from folks for nothing, although sometimes, unfortunately, that's what happens. Part of the problem is that some creators don't really think through what they're trying to achieve and set pledge prices accordingly, or conversely what they can actually achieve based on the funding goals they've set, when they decide to run a KS or a Patreon project. In the papercrafting line, we saw with the Lord Zsezse Works Elven Towers KS what happens when the creators lose sight of what's achievable and allow far too many free extras as stretch goals, which ultimately led to that KS ending with only a partial delivery of what had been promised, and a lot of depression and problems for the creators. In the case of the okumarts Darkfast Dungeons KS, I felt all along that the project was deliverable under the terms defined by the KS. I was though very surprised to find the Save The Day KS was being launched long before the Darkfast Dungeons one had been fulfilled, and personally thought that was a serious mistake at the time, because it meant having to split what time and energy was available for each. That seems to have been a major contributing factor to the delays to the Darkfast Dungeons KS materials. I think we can all sympathise with the appalling real-life problems David's had to contend with since the Darkfast Dungeons KS ran as well, which have contributed further to the delays. Again though, such doubling-up on KS projects is something other creators would benefit from avoiding as regards what won't work. None of this denigrates okumarts ' efforts, and I remain a great fan of David's creations. I do wonder though if, at now five years' on, it may not be time to draw a line under the Darkfast Dungeons project, and say it's no longer feasible to produce what we'd all hoped for? |
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Post by okumarts on Nov 22, 2019 15:07:15 GMT -9
I think my initial release schedule for the DFD KS seemed to make the Save the Day release feasible, but I agree it's a big thing to take on even when people are healthy and not needing my assistance. I have certainly learned from my folly here, but I have never felt down or unsure if things wouldn't ever be finished off, just overwhelmed and stuck from time to time and then a burst of energy pushes me along and I get stuff done. Parduz, I didn't feel attacked or put down at all by your statements. I totally agree and want to make things work. I think I have a better sense on how to deliver a bit faster so I will take the lead and kick things into gear again. My biggest fear has never been not finishing the releases, but releasing material I wasn't proud of. I also want to say that over the years as products were released and products were delayed that I've always received support across the board and encouragement. I have really enjoyed the process and haven't felt the need to 'take a break' or abandon anything. I think it's because I also play the games and I generally make what I want to play with. Every project has been above and beyond most similar releases or initial expectations (more minis, longer books, more material in general). I've done this because I want the material to be awesome, but I also want to feel good about what I'm sending out. |
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shep
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Post by shep on Nov 22, 2019 15:26:35 GMT -9
I had consulted folks regarding the adventures and heard that this was fine, but I knew it wasn't going to make people like Parduz happy. It seemed to be a good compromise at the time and I just plowed ahead, producing two books and sending them off. Parduz made and makes some good points about his expectations and I should respect that. Many life events and changing demands of work certainly screwed over my "best-made plans" and have slowed me down, but I am plugging away to finish it all. I understand it's been frustrating and disheartening and I've seen similarly timed Kickstarters call a mulligan and move along, but I am still very motivated and actively working to finish these things. I think releasing the products independent of commercial releases would speed up the process for me. That's what I'm going to start doing with some leftover Save The Day work and now Darkfast Dungeons as well. I'm very proud of my back catalog and need to remember that there is a list of almost finished work that would take little time to finish and release. It's time to get those items off my hard drive and out the door without worrying about the trade dress, etc. stuff that just seems to slow down and complicate the projects. Wasn't it von Moltke who said that no plan will survive initial contact with the enemy?  |
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shep
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Post by shep on Nov 22, 2019 15:49:14 GMT -9
[...]You get into less trouble, if you are totally transparent with what you do and where you put the money, than if ... Well, i wrote a couple of emails and a couple of private messages to Dave in these years, and got answers (in terms of when the product should have been available), so i have nothing bad to say about Okumarts being open. I can say there's delays, not that i did'nt get answers. In general I get what you mean, anyway: i followed an handful of games on BGG which have been demolished by the KS process (one of them i even playtested before being published, and i did'nt pledge for none of them) and yes, the crowd can be really harsh if you're not communicative. Again: OkumArts always answered, and i don't think that i've never been harsh, rude, offensive or even hostile. Actually, my last post here is the only one containing complains instead of questions, 'cause i think that 5 years are a bit of a stretch. Don't get me wrong: i make music, i compose, and i've never finished a piece going from the beginning to the end. After a while i get tired of it, i have "dirty ears", so i NEED to abandon it for at least two or three months, and then going back to that piece when i forgot how it is and with "clean ears". I'd guess that -in different forms- it is the same of everyone making art: you need variations and to kill routine. So, i'm more than prone to give to Dave some slack. I'm just saying that i can have compositions that are'nt finished in 30 years 'cause i did'nt take money from anyone, and i did'nt declare any dead-line to anyone, while Okumarts did and so i feel it should obliged in some way. That's all and i still don't have any bad feeling for Dave or OkumArts. From your post, I got the feeling that you are somewhat frustrated with the delay of DFD, and needed to vent said frustration. I did not see your post as an attack against David, just as your way to share your feelings. I, too, know that sometimes life is a true lovely and delays are unavoidable. I'm writing for Germany's last printed RPG magazine, and we were not able to publish an issue for the last 2 years. Not because we would not have enough content, but our publisher changed jobs and moved, and happens to be our (only) layouter, too. Furthermore, there were delays with deliveries of artwork, trouble finding enough paid adds, etc. Now, we are going to publish an online issue with reviews, before those get too old. We also changed our production setup. But that's the way it is, when there is one publisher/layouter/editor-in-chief/marketing manager and two editors/authors/reviewer, and everything is done as kind of a hobby aside from RL work. Btw., since we are talking about delays, may I ask what became of that Star Trek opening theme you wanted to compose for me back in 2016...? |
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shep
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Post by shep on Nov 22, 2019 15:58:50 GMT -9
I fully agree with mproteau (Paper Realms) regarding both Patreon and KickStarter projects. If I want to give someone money to support them and their endeavours, I'll do that, but both Patreon and KickStarter are BUSINESSES, not CHARITIES, so there is a definite covenant here between the creators and their supporters that the supporters will be provided with the materials they've signed-up and paid for, barring serious problems (and that IS what you're doing on Patreon as well if you read the creators' statements of intent). Remember too that in both cases a significant part of all monies paid is going to the business owners, not the creators; again, these are NOT charities. While some people's expectations may end up too high for various reasons, especially for KS projects, the main purpose of KickStarter is to create and sell products. It's not some vague means of getting cash from folks for nothing, although sometimes, unfortunately, that's what happens. Part of the problem is that some creators don't really think through what they're trying to achieve and set pledge prices accordingly, or conversely what they can actually achieve based on the funding goals they've set, when they decide to run a KS or a Patreon project. In the papercrafting line, we saw with the Lord Zsezse Works Elven Towers KS what happens when the creators lose sight of what's achievable and allow far too many free extras as stretch goals, which ultimately led to that KS ending with only a partial delivery of what had been promised, and a lot of depression and problems for the creators. In the case of the okumarts Darkfast Dungeons KS, I felt all along that the project was deliverable under the terms defined by the KS. I was though very surprised to find the Save The Day KS was being launched long before the Darkfast Dungeons one had been fulfilled, and personally thought that was a serious mistake at the time, because it meant having to split what time and energy was available for each. That seems to have been a major contributing factor to the delays to the Darkfast Dungeons KS materials. I think we can all sympathise with the appalling real-life problems David's had to contend with since the Darkfast Dungeons KS ran as well, which have contributed further to the delays. Again though, such doubling-up on KS projects is something other creators would benefit from avoiding as regards what won't work. None of this denigrates okumarts ' efforts, and I remain a great fan of David's creations. I do wonder though if, at now five years' on, it may not be time to draw a line under the Darkfast Dungeons project, and say it's no longer feasible to produce what we'd all hoped for? Doing too many KS at the same time was one of the reasons, one of the major German RPG publishers had to file for bankruptcy this past summer. Luckily, they found an insolvency administrator who does everything to save them instead of just liquidating the company. They're on their way back up, and will actually publish the German version of Star Trek Adventures (of which I was part of the translation team) in 2020. However, this shows that even publishing pros are not save from making mistakes and loading too much onto their shoulders... |
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Post by Parduz on Nov 22, 2019 16:18:41 GMT -9
From your post, I got the feeling that you are somewhat frustrated with the delay of DFD, and needed to vent said frustration. Yup, i am. And wanted to pass this as a feedback, just like i put stars and reviews on DriveThruRPG. Btw., since we are talking about delays, may I ask what became of that Star Trek opening theme you wanted to compose for me back in 2016...? LOL It was "horrible": no matter what i tried, it always sounded "medieval" instead of "classical-modern-score"  When i go out from electronic/synthesis, it becomes clear why Orchestration is a degree on its own; as a self-tought musician (for a lack of a more appropriate term) i may have got some not-so-conscious grasp of how "Conan the barbarian" score works, but not how (say) Star Wars imperial march do. It was embarassing, and i let it go in the forgotten realms |
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shep
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Post by shep on Nov 22, 2019 17:11:35 GMT -9
From your post, I got the feeling that you are somewhat frustrated with the delay of DFD, and needed to vent said frustration. Yup, i am. And wanted to pass this as a feedback, just like i put stars and reviews on DriveThruRPG. Btw., since we are talking about delays, may I ask what became of that Star Trek opening theme you wanted to compose for me back in 2016...? LOL It was "horrible": no matter what i tried, it always sounded "medieval" instead of "classical-modern-score" When i go out from electronic/synthesis, it becomes clear why Orchestration is a degree on its own; as a self-tought musician (for a lack of a more appropriate term) i may have got some not-so-conscious grasp of how "Conan the barbarian" score works, but not how (say) Star Wars imperial march do. It was embarassing, and i let it go in the forgotten realms However, you could have informed, now couldn't you? |
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Post by Rhannon on Nov 23, 2019 1:10:42 GMT -9
Good morning Parduz! :-) Unfortunately for a long time I have problems with my free available time, but surely I had enough time to respond to an old user of this forum. First of all I apologize. I didn't think that anyone could fail to distinguish irony from sarcasm. I didn't think this was so difficult for someone. Sorry. :-) And ... no, I won't answer to you in Italian. This is an English language forum. We try to respect everyone by using this language. If you want answers in Italian we should discuss privately. Now let's solve the most important questions. The "banana cargo". This is a true story. it happened to me a few years ago. I wanted to invest some money in international shares. In the end something changed in South America and I lost a lot of money in this operation. What does this mean for me? That a Kickstarter or a Patreon is not a stock market investment. If anyone sees them as mathematical calculations commercial would do better to invest their money elsewhere. Personal opinion again. About personal opinions I respect those of others. This is why I never consider my thoughts a judgment against other thoughts. But I think: A - I can disagree if I don't agree with them. B- I think I can have one of my own even if I disagree with many or all other people. I believe that my thoughts on Kickstarter and Patreon remained the same as they did a few years ago ( We have already addressed this topic here ). And it's not about confusing charity and support. As I have already said I believe there is a very limited understanding of these two very useful potential tools. causes limitations of the human nature of backers, patreons and authors and creators. In short, everyone. Someone talks about promises as if they were commercial contracts. Others (see Reaper, CMON ...) use these systems to compete unfairly with other publishers and producers by eliminating business risk ( and allowing the best to outperform others ) by selling a product before it is even produced. ... My personal interpretation of these two instruments is different. With kickstarter I contribute to making an idea come true. This does not always happen to perfection. Sometimes there are problems when the theory is transformed. Time, quality, quantity ... what matters is good faith, honesty of commitment. It is above all an attempt, not a sure thing. A fundraiser to try, without total security (and that's why big producers wouldn't need an imho kickstarter) over the years a little bit of everything has happened to me. Escaped creators, dishonest creators, creators who have grossly mistaken the presented accounts and failed to achieve a complete result. Time problems ... everything. But kickstarter (and other fundraisers) remains, as far as I'm concerned, essentially a sharing of an idea. A participation in a project that can succeed or not. Not a commercial contract that is based on 3/4 dollars. The promises are a commitment of good faith. Not an insolvent commercial contract. The same thing, with some minor differences, is for Patreon. It is not charity, we are not ridiculous please. It is support. And so I don't really like it when some producers are the first to think it's a sort of online store. Why then also people who should give support think so. An author, an artist should be supported even when he doesn't give anything in return. Why our little support (bad word charity in this case. I think all authors can also live without it) can create their art a little more easily. And it is especially useful when they have problems with time, health and economic security ... Good! Here I stop. I believe that if you haven't understood until now it is because you don't want to understand. Good day everyone. :-) |
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Post by Vermin King on Nov 23, 2019 6:43:38 GMT -9
'Insolvent Commercial Contract' made me smile. No such thing, but there are legal means to dissolve the contracts and when the contract is not fulfilled there are ways to recompense remuneration paid, but, though far from set in stone, rules are in place.
I think we all can say we have experienced contracts in some form or other. Mostly these days, we see agreements. Easier for those who are in control to change the terms of that agreement. Think mobile phones, internet, cable and utilities. If you have any of these, it is a good bet that the agreement you signed up for is not the agreement you are currently under. How much input did you have on those changes?
My feeling on Kickstarter and Patreon is that as far as rigidity, they are positioned below Agreements. Promise? Maybe. Goals? Closer to the mark.
Benefactors either receive the goals or they don't. Benefactors decide whether they will continue their support or not. I personally feel Kickstarter spells out expectations more than Patreon, but that's a bit fuzzy. I think that this fuzziness is part of why many of these fail. That, and too many people doing them are just looking for a way to do something they want to do and get paid to do it. A question of priorities in which the getting paid part takes precedence over the results part.
I agree that both are powerful tools, but way too much opportunity for misunderstanding than I think I am comfortable with ... on either end of things
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Post by oldschooldm on Nov 23, 2019 7:22:07 GMT -9
If you don't want the monthly-obligation feel of Patreon, don't offer it. Do "per project". Honestly, for people working on complicated things, I prefer that as a backer...
I'm in it to support folks. Period. I don't download 90% of the stuff I get notified is ready...
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Post by Parduz on Nov 23, 2019 8:35:37 GMT -9
Well, we're really OT now, but i like this discussion about what we (should)(not)expect from KS and Patreon. I agree with some part of some of your opinions, so that's how i think it (should) works: - KS to me was, and should remain, a way for someone that has a finished idea but not the funds to have a finished "product" (the realization of such idea). I envision something, i design it, i show what it is and how it will be to the ppl and if enough of them like it (so, enough bakers) i now have the funds to produce the real thing. i truly HATE when big companies uses KS for a "pre-order without investment" (SJG, Reaper, so on). That's a way to have no risks at a little expenses, and to me it is an abuse of the KS system.... in a ethic sense. However, KS is to fund existing ideas, or ready-to-made projects, to get the final product done. - Patreon to me is much more similar to the "patron" definition (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/it/dizionario/inglese/patron): to support something so he can do his "things" when and how he wants. That's the concept that existed in ancient Rome (patron in italian is "mecenate", which was the name of a Roman which "patronized" Orazio and other latin poets) and maybe even before? i'm not an historician. The two sites have no casual names: each one reflect his own purpose, which IMHO are different. |
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Post by Vermin King on Nov 23, 2019 9:52:38 GMT -9
The Philosophy of Kickstarter and Patreon discussion is an important one, but we sure are cluttering this thread. Sorry, okumarts, for cluttering your thread, but I think it is an important discussion. I was trying to figure out how to pull it out for its own thread, but not sure how, because there is so much reference to previous posts or responses to previous posts. |
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Post by mesper on Nov 23, 2019 11:33:58 GMT -9
Correct me if I'm wrong - but BOTH platforms ( Kickstarter and Patreon) have in the background earning money and being profitable (thanks to commissions and fees or money transfers charged on participants /contributions). *So... it is in their obvious business interest to attract as many producers/publishers/bidders as possible and reach as many participants (supporters) as possible. Then BOTH platforms most often compete for the same groups of suppliers/producers/artists and the same target audience (supporters = customers). Both ( KS, Patreon and btw many lookalikes!) are relatively new, created on the basis of new, digital media and possibilities (like viral promotion, content sharing, digital payments, etc.). So at the beginning they were experimental and are not completely subject to common /traditional regulations and classic business / commercial concepts - and thus possibly quite far from user's habits and expectations. As a result both platforms are quite " open", have not-that-strict or even flexible regulations and in most cases turn a blind eye to some derogations here and there. Then on the other hand, we have a whole bunch of "waiting and horny", in some cases simply "nostalgic" or just expecting new groundbreaking ideas users who would give away /pay (sort of impatient " just STFM and get my money" kind) a lot of money for getting their dreamed, long-time anticipated productions - which of, moreover, otherwise most often would not even have had a chance to appear. So we have here a real clash of interests and expectations (artist/providers/producers vs users/contributors), all of it with a third parties business sauce(!) involved in the background (platforms). In such a situation, sometimes a typical conflict of interests and dissatisfaction (resulting from misunderstanding, undetermination and different unfulfilled expectations) just MUST occur - and BTW in many cases from ALL(!) parties concerned. So some providers are just trying to insolently pre-sell ready products (thus gain new or simply secure market share position or gain a competitive advantage) and some "innovators" want to support ideas that are just emerging, quite often looking for more development options /artist freedom). So IMHO BOTH points of view ( Rhannon and Parduz ) kinda fit into the same, although somewhat vague, imprecise market pattern/scheme - which is not being regulated and still under development... However IMHO - as a rule, according to the service names: - Kickstarter - means a request for support and RAISE FUNDS for the development and launch of a new, well thought-out and ready production /commodity for which the producer, author or publisher has no funds.
- Patronite - refers, according to the name, to support (understood as VOLUNTARY patronage) creativity **.
>>> Well in the latter case I agree with Parduz that Patronite with its levels /tiers /and "promised promises" sometimes can actually BADLY MISLEAD some participants!
*)
BTW there are other ways of distributed social co-financing
Like those that offer share in future profits - fledgling competition for investment in bonds or securities - for now they are active on the software and game development markets.
**) Although as we remember from history patrons (i.e. those paying costs) had their own, often specific and strict requirements - see Italian Medici family or Pope vs Michelangelo and Leonardo etc.
EDIT
Famous ...and One More Thing:)
In many cases, at least at the initial stage, Kickstarter served not only as a source of gathering funds but also as a significant feedback from the community (which sometimes even influenced the direction of development)
So future users /supporters could influence the development process of the product and somehow even became its co-creators!
BTW it was and still IS quite common in the IT industry and game dev., then comics and indie movies - for example, supporters could vote for specific languages of product localisations (like subtitles and/or dubbing in different languages)
So some level of uncertainty and even surprises are imo kinda built-in in the concept of Kickstarter.
In turn, Patronite is IMHO mostly based on trust in the author's vision and acceptance of his creation - and of course trust in his reliability and honesty, that he can fulfil its promise of delivery of content in line with its commitment. |
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I have complains for OkumArts The Company. My problem is in the business field, not in the human one.
