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Post by Nemo on Feb 22, 2014 5:53:35 GMT -9
Hi, everybody I'm sorry for the disappearance but I really needed to catch up with some things in life. But now I'm back to work on the next set for Endless Dungeons: a complex of mines/caverns (I haven't decided for a proper name/backstory, yet). In my plans, every tile will come in two versions: with and without the rails. Here's a WIP for a corridor. Even though it's not finished, feel free to say what you think and make suggestions and whatnot, as usual As you can see, corridors are a bit wider than in the Base Set. This is for having the space to draw the rock walls that I feel are kinda necessary. Still, squares will be always 1 inch. Before releasing this set I'm thinking about a new free add-on full of tiles that will be connecting the Base Set (with a more dungeonish look) with the more underground feel of this new work. This add-on will also contain a big tile just like Temple Ruins and its name will be The Forge of a Thousand Souls.
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Post by mproteau (Paper Realms) on Feb 22, 2014 5:57:06 GMT -9
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Post by Nemo on Feb 22, 2014 8:20:23 GMT -9
Ok, I guess I'll have to work on some details, but I think the "mood" of the cave is there.
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Post by migibb on Feb 22, 2014 10:01:25 GMT -9
I love the mood lighting - though the flame looks a bit too up-and-down to me??? Looking at the torch it looks like the rail is running along the wall rather than the floor, if that makes any sense....? (Mind you I have not looked down on too many lit torches in the past.....)
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Post by cowboyleland on Feb 22, 2014 14:13:35 GMT -9
You are right migibb, unless there is a strong draft coming out of that beam Nemo, please read the 28Terrain guidelines and consider making your new set compatible.
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Post by bravesirkevin on Feb 22, 2014 14:49:47 GMT -9
I think rotating the flame 180 degrees might do the trick. The perspective of the beams will help the fire to read as vertical when the flames point away from the tracks. You should probably consider breaking the light where the track would cast a shadow... The rail closer to the torch should have a very narrow shadow, while the more distant rail should have a wider one. That will add a little depth to the tile and imply that the torch is quite high above it.
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Post by cowboyleland on Feb 22, 2014 18:20:41 GMT -9
Now that I think about this more, I don't think it is a good idea to run your track down the middle of two tiles. For game purposes (area of effect, ranges etc) the rail cart should be in one square or the other, not straddling two.
Another beautiful tile messed up by gaming!
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Post by Nemo on Feb 23, 2014 2:54:34 GMT -9
Thanks, cowboyleland. Bravesirkevin invited me to do that, too, and I happily obliged migibb: I see what you mean. I tried to follow your advice and the tile underwent the "Parduz treatment" (his approval is now pending ) I narrowed back the tile to make it consistent to what I did until now. Now that I think about this more, I don't think it is a good idea to run your track down the middle of two tiles. For game purposes (area of effect, ranges etc) the rail cart should be in one square or the other, not straddling two. Another beautiful tile messed up by gaming! I may be oversimplifying here, but I don't think there's a real problem: being in LOS/Area of effect/Range/Whatnot is usually a binary condition (either you are or you are not), so I don't think this can change if something occupies two or more squares (like big monsters), nor it does because of the area it occupies in a single given square. After all, most people don't occupy completely 1,5 square meters
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Post by cowboyleland on Feb 23, 2014 15:17:08 GMT -9
In Pathfinder, Savage Worlds and D&D, characters take up a whole square and are affected by a spell if they are in a square affected by an effect. If characters climb into a rail car the size of the track they are going to fill the whole car and be in two squares. By the rules, characters can not be between two squares. This is to avoid arguments about them being "half out" of the blast radius or "half in" the field of protection, or whatever. You may sell the sets anyway, but when your customers actually come to use them, they will curse you, perhaps not loud, but deep
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Post by bravesirkevin on Feb 23, 2014 16:28:09 GMT -9
I have to agree with the cowboy on this one. The tiles do look very awesome, but it's not going to play too nicely with game mechanics... Apart from the fact that sitting in the mine cart will force a character to straddle two squares, it also doesn't leave room for characters to stand between the rails and the wall if an out-of-control cart comes hurtling towards them. There will be endless arguments over whether the character was standing on the tracks (where he'd certainly be hit) or hugging the wall (where he'd probably be safe). A real human could comfortably fit in that gap, but your average miniature's going to have a base that's 20-25 mm wide... In a scenario where two characters are standing on either side of a mine cart, it's going to be mighty crowded in there.
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Post by mproteau (Paper Realms) on Feb 23, 2014 17:01:39 GMT -9
Something to consider - I did a fairly big mine tunnel kitbash for WWG. If you have any interest in the tiles having a hope of connecting up, maybe we can try to coordinate. I don't know that there's actually a market for them working together, but I'm putting it out there in case you're interested. I've only now gotten ahold of FDG's mines, though it doesn't look like the tiles themselves have tracks on them.
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Post by Parduz on Feb 24, 2014 1:21:27 GMT -9
I don't see a lot of problems. You could either - use a small cart but consider a figure as occupy both the space (like a 2 spaces figure) for all purpose ('cause it can lean on one side when shooting/attacking but also it can't dodge while inside.... who said riding a mine cart was easy? ) - use a bigger, 2 spaces wide cart (or that flat "vehicles" powered by a lever), allowing the occupying figures to stay on the squares. IMHO how it is now is better than doing either a 1-square or a 3-square wide tunnel 'cause i feel it the best for a "standard" dungeon/mine crawl (where you could have two character walking side-by-side but not more.
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Post by Nemo on Feb 24, 2014 1:39:53 GMT -9
cowboyleland and bravesirkevin : I see what you mean and I can't say I completely agree. Still, I understand that that's the whole point ("ambiguity" rising from the layout of the tile). I think that something like this should address the issue, preserving game mechanics and what I had in mind for the tile (and actually giving space for miners to work ). Either way (the tile being "right" or not, now), thank you very much for your heads-up and opinions it also doesn't leave room for characters to stand between the rails and the wall if an out-of-control cart comes hurtling towards them. There will be endless arguments over whether the character was standing on the tracks (where he'd certainly be hit) or hugging the wall (where he'd probably be safe). Just out of curiosity (I'm mainly a boardgame player, my RPG experience is stuck with AD&D and not much else), isn't that what Saving Throws are for? mproteau (Paper Realms) : if you want, send me a private message with something more specific about what you have in mind
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Post by bravesirkevin on Feb 24, 2014 1:54:14 GMT -9
Just out of curiosity (I'm mainly a boardgame player, my RPG experience is stuck with AD&D and not much else), isn't that what Saving Throws are for? That's exactly what saving throws are for, but you're still going to have an unhappy player if he gets run down by a renegade minecart because the dice say he was foxtrotting over the sleepers between the rails instead of safely clinging to the wall as he'd intended. The idea is that some squares are safer than others. The new tile definitely addresses the problem quite nicely! Can see lots of opportunities for potential drama... You could close up a short stretch of the "safe squares" with piles of crates or something and force the characters to walk between the tracks momentarily to get past it... even better if they can't clear the rails in a single turn, and there's a sharp rise just ahead - they won't be able to see if something's coming, but if something does come, they know it's going to be moving really fast!
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Post by Nemo on Feb 24, 2014 2:02:14 GMT -9
Just out of curiosity (I'm mainly a boardgame player, my RPG experience is stuck with AD&D and not much else), isn't that what Saving Throws are for? That's exactly what saving throws are for, but you're still going to have an unhappy player if he gets run down by a renegade minecart because the dice say he was foxtrotting over the sleepers between the rails instead of safely clinging to the wall as he'd intended. The idea is that some squares are safer than others. It makes sense and I completely agree Again, thank you very much.
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Post by imnntt on Feb 24, 2014 3:48:24 GMT -9
If you offset the tracks you are going to have to make seperate left and right turn tiles, you will not be able to use 1 for both.
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Post by cowboyleland on Feb 24, 2014 4:18:47 GMT -9
I think the solution is to make the tunnel three wide so people can walk on either side of the track or on the track. It will make the mine look huge, but that is a consequence of the rule that a human size creature occupies a 5' square (actually a 5' CUBE!)
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Post by Parduz on Feb 24, 2014 4:58:40 GMT -9
Out of curiosity, how miniature-in-a-cart occupied square are managed in the curves? Or there's to be 90° corners instead of curves?
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Post by mproteau (Paper Realms) on Feb 24, 2014 5:18:31 GMT -9
Simple! If you end your turn on a corner, you're flung from the cart and land into a square 1d4 spaces away based on the trajectory of the cart at the end of the turn!
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Post by bravesirkevin on Feb 24, 2014 5:27:08 GMT -9
Out of curiosity, how miniature-in-a-cart occupied square are managed in the curves? Or there's to be 90° corners instead of curves? I was thinking about this one earlier actually... If you've got a cart that takes up a single square, then you just move it along the squares that have the most track in them, ignoring the squares that have less track. If it's a 2"x1" cart, then you'd move the cart to follow the drawn track, but in terms of game mechanics, it still only occupies 2 squares: the ones that contain the majority of the cart.
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Post by Nemo on Feb 24, 2014 14:12:11 GMT -9
I don't really like the idea of widening the passages, so I made some tries, also trying to avoid what Imnntt said. This is the result: I'm still working on the single images and details, but I'm quite satisfied by the overall look. Also, it shouldn't give too many problems in the management of the cart on the rails, especially on curves. The arrows point out where a tile ends and the next begins (90° curves are 3x2 squares and the T-junction is 4x2). I plan to make straight corridors of different lengths, from 1 to 6 squares.
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Post by bravesirkevin on Feb 24, 2014 14:23:53 GMT -9
It certainly looks cool! That diagonal piece really adds a lot of character to it as well.
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Post by migibb on Feb 24, 2014 16:01:32 GMT -9
I much prefer your new layout and not just for game rule reasons. In my experience, going to mining museums, the rails did run down one side of passages anyway. Gave a path to walk down and not get in the way of your workmates hauling cvoal, ore etc out I suppose. So the new layout to me looks more realistic.... Didn't even realise till you did it.
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Post by mproteau (Paper Realms) on Feb 24, 2014 16:21:39 GMT -9
Nemo - I sent you a PM with a link to some track masks that illustrate the layout of the tiles I did. Your track looks to be about 2.5' wide, with no room on the sides for the cart to extend outward. That seems like a small mine cart to me, but I don't think I've ever been up close to a mine cart. I was keeping in scale with the one existing WWG tile that had a mine track on it, so my track is actually 5' wide.
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Post by WackyAnne on Feb 24, 2014 16:25:25 GMT -9
Nemo Here is what Paizo did for the official Pathfinder Map Pack: MinesTheir map pack cards are all 5" x 8", and in this case the outer inches are black for rock walls, there is then an inch of tunnel, an inch of track centred, and another inch of tunnel, so tunnels are all three inches across. Their colours are all pretty blah, but this set does match up with their Dungeons map pack, and possibly others. I much prefer yours, but this will give you an idea of what else is out there though. There are also the HeroQuest tiles by Ron Shirtz which follow all altogether different format... And ones talion did for Warhammer Quest on the Lost & the Damned forums (3 wide, track down centre), - about 3/4 of the way down the page, also showing Citadel Floor Plan example of mine tracks (1 square wide, tracks only).
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Post by cowboyleland on Feb 24, 2014 17:52:05 GMT -9
I like them, Nemo
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Post by Nemo on Feb 25, 2014 1:39:29 GMT -9
Thanks to you all mproteau (Paper Realms) : me neither But from what I read on the Internet (there's people selling mine carts as antiques, apparently) they came in various sizes, from 2' to "Indiana Jones" size. My tracks are 3' wide (90 cm), so the cart should be big enough to let jump in most of D&D Characters (well, not all at once I guess ). Hi WackyAnne : thanks for the links I already knew of Paizo's Set (and the tile for WHQ): in fact, trying to stick to 2'' wide passages is in the hope of making something different from what's already out there (not that I think that I succeeded). And something more realistic too, as I just discovered
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Post by squirmydad on Feb 25, 2014 8:56:28 GMT -9
Definitely like the narrow twisting tunnels look of these. I have been in some real mining operations and the carts that were muscle-powered were not tremendously large - they get pretty heavy when they're full of rocks and soil, let alone an Umber Hulk. They could comfortably hold A person, maybe two if they're friends. The larger carts I saw were in more modern facilities or ones that had bigger muscles (horses, mules, waterwheels and ropes, etc.) to haul the loads. edit-> Minecart in Hope, Alaska;
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Post by wyvern on Feb 26, 2014 4:17:21 GMT -9
Squirmydad's point about the size of carts is well made, and the narrow twisting tunnels are ideal for those. Most small-scale near-surface mines like this would be following ore veins and/or softer (easier to cut) rocks, so wouldn't run in straight lines for long, of course.
Not sure about the use of unprotected torches in mines. The potential for explosive gases mean such things wouldn't be common (especially not if untended), plus there has to be a through draft in any mine for air-breathing creatures, so they'd be likely to blow out in the straighter "corridor" sections. Maybe it would be better to show them only at obvious stopping places (like the "corner" tiles at present, by the barrel and crate), or where there are points in the rails. Or perhaps just provide them as optional tokens. Their presence does add a colourful lighting-effect to vary the floor designs though, so I'm a little reluctant to say this!
For the rail points, there needs to be a control bar from the lever to the movable parts of both rails, which themselves should be connected together by a bar to hold the rails at the correct separation from one another, even in a setting like this (or the points won't work).
If you were thinking about expanding the mine-with-rails concept with some fresh variants, perhaps using wooden rails would be one option, or for expert stoneworker Dwarves, stone rails cut into the rock floor might be interesting to experiment with.
Don't forget some top-down mine cart tokens (wood or metal, maybe, laden and empty), and perhaps some pit ponies too?
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Post by Nemo on Feb 26, 2014 13:26:14 GMT -9
Not sure about the use of unprotected torches in mines. Actually, me neither But I found out that I need to mediate between "realism" (actually always a minefield in a fantasy setting), playability, the need to make everything recognizable and my own ability in representing/drawing things. Add to all of this that I'd like to make this tiles useful in more than one context (dwarven as well as goblin mines, or just a cave system that leads to the lair of an ugly monster) and torches may reveal themselves as the more "neutral" way to represent a source of light. Obviously I may be wrong, but rest assured that I'll think about it, though For the rail points, there needs to be a control bar from the lever to the movable parts of both rails, which themselves should be connected together by a bar to hold the rails at the correct separation from one another, even in a setting like this (or the points won't work). I totally agree. As I said, I'm still working on details If you were thinking about expanding the mine-with-rails concept with some fresh variants, perhaps using wooden rails would be one option, or for expert stoneworker Dwarves, stone rails cut into the rock floor might be interesting to experiment with. Sure. Let's just say what I showed until now is just the equivalent of corridors in the Basic Set. What I hope will give "character" will be the content of the "rooms" and the various tokens one can add to the map once it's laid out. Don't forget some top-down mine cart tokens (wood or metal, maybe, laden and empty), and perhaps some pit ponies too? I'll totally go for the cart tokens, but I tend to represent creatures with miniatures in my games. So I'm not sure I'll draw any animals. Thank you so much, wyvern, as usual
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