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Post by tonsha on Jan 10, 2009 14:08:03 GMT -9
Discussion moved over from this thread: onemonk.proboards89.com/index.cgi?board=songofblades&action=display&thread=528&page=1Basically, I've been thinking of a 'standard' dungeon tile size. Small enough to transport easily. Regular square size so I don't have to sort out corridors from T-junctions. And able to be placed in a pile to allow random generation of a dungeon WITHOUT resorting to rolling dice or looking up tables. Simply take the next tile from the pile and make it fit next to the tile your miniatures are already standing on. I'm currently working off a 4x4 square grid that (at the moment) looks like this:  In an attempt to see if the concept is workable, I've sketched up different tile layouts and arranged them into a 'real' dungeon. The results can be seen here: www.flickr.com/photos/38042246@N00/3185370587/sizes/o/I think the sketch proves the concept can work. And it can even cater for rooms that are larger than 4x4 squares. The sketch shows 4x8, 8x8 & 6x6 rooms in the dungeon (admittedly with small alcoves or corridors leading into the room). How would you include large rooms in the draw pile? My first thought is that you wouldn't include the whole room. Just one tile that has '8x8' on it in the corner. Or maybe large rooms will ALWAYS be 'specials' and have different tile designs so they are easy to spot. In either case, only include one of the room tiles in the draw pile and leave the others off to one side. When the room tile is drawn, collect all of the tiles together and place them into the Dungeon layout if there is space for them if there isn't space for the entire room, place a stair tile as the next tile, and the 'big' room appears on another level of the dungeon. Ok, my 70 tile dungeon has over 31 tile variants - way too many. I will need to concentrate on basic tiles to begin with - 2x4 corridors, 'L' shaped corners, T - Junctions, Crossroads and the basic 4x4 room. Additional options (that I liked) were the 3x3 & 3x4 variants and the 'Diagonal' room. I'd now like to open the floor to feedback from the forum members. Are there any tile layouts you would prefer? Or do you have any 'special' type rooms you think should be included in a basic dungeon tile pack (magic pools, fountains, throne rooms, etc.). All feedback appreciated!  DaveA |
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Post by abaddonwormwood on Jan 10, 2009 14:44:20 GMT -9
See this is where you and I differ. I would rather have playing cards with the tiles on them as my random draw. Plus you can annotate the cards giving infomation per level band that the party is currently in.
As for the tiles themselves - looking very sexy indeed. I would have the tiles based upon a set grided area so that the user could either trim out the tile section or mount it on black matt board as a block.
Lord Abaddon of Wormwood
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Post by squirmydad on Jan 10, 2009 15:07:02 GMT -9
I think having a whole series in exactly the same coloring and style would also be good. just change the small details, like stains, dirt, and moss. I think if you did this and entire set would be great to build a dungeon from.
I like the idea of a stack of tiles as well. Just shuffle the tiles and draw as you explore. I do understand the usefulness of the card draw method, but drawing tiles eliminates searching for the right tile every time a card is drawn.
Also, don't forget to make some doorways, with the stone around the frame of the door in the same texture to keep the look and feel consistent.
JIM
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Post by kane on Jan 10, 2009 15:27:26 GMT -9
I would go with a number coding system. Each card would have a number that corresponds to a number on the back of a tile. Then, you just keep the tiles in numerical order.
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Post by godofrandomness on Jan 10, 2009 16:50:00 GMT -9
First off, that tile look amazing! I would go with a number coding system. Each card would have a number that corresponds to a number on the back of a tile. Then, you just keep the tiles in numerical order. If you're drawing tiles at random from a stack, distinguishing the backs would throw that off (played in local Magic tourneys back in the day, they really drill that into you). EDIT: OOPs misread what I was quoting there...  As for actually shuffling tiles, after a few games of munchkin quest and betrayal at the house on the hill, shuffling the tiles is a pain and brings more damage to them over time. I too prefer the WHQ "tile deck" method of randomizing or maybe a table to roll on. |
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Post by tonsha on Jan 11, 2009 10:31:57 GMT -9
ooooooookay! Looks like we all have our own preferences on dungeon randomising!!  That's fair enough - each to his own. I'm going to give my method a try and see how it goes. I'll make sure the tile support it anyway. How about ideas for the tile variants for the basic set? Here are my thoughts: - 2x4 corridor
- T-junction
- L-junction
- Crossroads
- standard 4x4 tile
- 2x2 stairs up and down
- 3x3 variants (2)
- 3x4 variants (2)
- The 'Diagonal' Room
That's 12 tiles in total - I'd put them on 6 pages along with additional terrainthat could fit into 2x2 squares. Terrain ideas could be: - Doors (Of course)
- Pentagram
- Crevasse & Bridge (Or should the crevasse be a tile??)
- Fountain
- Pool
- Trapdoors
- Treasure
- Barrels & Crates
- GIANT TOADSTOOLS!!
- skulls/skeletons
Please provide your requests. Quick update - here are the tiles I've got so far. With moss and without.  DaveA |
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Post by kane on Jan 11, 2009 11:27:47 GMT -9
Hows about Stalagmites, Pillars, and Bedrolls/Beds? Maybe Prison Cells, too.
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Post by onemonkeybeau on Jan 11, 2009 17:37:32 GMT -9
I'd like to see the crevasse and bridge as separate tiles for more flexibility. I'd also like to see some 3D elements thrown in... (I may have already already mentioned this in another post ) VERY simple, box builds of pillars, treasure boxes, raised platforms, altars, etc... onemonkeybeau |
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Post by godofrandomness on Jan 11, 2009 18:27:14 GMT -9
I've always had a preference for ducks in dungeons. I mean everyone knows you should know better than to pick up a duck in a dungeon.....  |
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Post by abaddonwormwood on Jan 11, 2009 22:12:47 GMT -9
See this is were I would go the 3D path - trappings. Things like pillars, bedding and the like should be a 3D or at least 2.5D tiles. Having items printed on the tile, to me is a cop out.
Lord Abaddon of Wormwood
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Post by kane on Jan 11, 2009 22:16:23 GMT -9
Agree. No walls is just fine, but to get depth, 3D props are perfect.
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Post by boromirandkermit on Jan 11, 2009 22:29:41 GMT -9
Whole-heartedly agree that props need to be 3D. Otherwise, with lead or even paper miniatures, it doesn't look right at all.
I also think that having each tile on a card with special rules for your game of choice is definetly the way to go... certainly the way I would go.
As it is I'm doing up a set of cards with dungeon rooms/corridors on them to go with Song of Gold and Darkness (just for personal use - but will probably put them up as a download on my blog). I would love to add your tiles to it when they're done as they are bloody fantastic!
Ben.
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Post by godofrandomness on Jan 11, 2009 23:06:30 GMT -9
Are you going to make the tiles available to us by chance?
And I also agree on the 2.5 or 3d terrain. It looks so much better.
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Post by tonsha on Jan 11, 2009 23:09:38 GMT -9
(Wow - everybody's change of avatars totally confused me for a moment!) Ok then - furniture can be 2.5D or 3D. This means I put it on the back burner for now, because that raises the complexity and therefore extends the delivery. Should I just do a release with the stuff I've already got? (Are you all that desperate? ) Or are there any more 'basic' tile layouts you would like? ...and I need to do doors first (nearly forgot them!). I've a number of thoughts here: - Doors only (Maybe with a locked/unlocked counter to show status?)
- Doorway with door, and empty doorway. Swap 'em out when the party opens the door.
- Doorway sleeve with door inserts (More complicated - I'd need to think about this)
Preferences please! ;D DaveA |
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Post by godofrandomness on Jan 11, 2009 23:19:41 GMT -9
Different doors for open and close would be the easiest. It work with Heroquest, adn it will work here too. I'd recommend doing it like a paper mini in terms of constructing. See dungeon plungin stuff from oversoul-games.com for a good example of what I mean.
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Post by abaddonwormwood on Jan 12, 2009 0:35:27 GMT -9
Use Jim style bases for the doors. Have one with a standard door then do one with an arch that can be left as is or cut to be opened. This could also go one step further by having a arch with no door/broken door.
This is all great!
Lord Abaddon of Wormwood
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Post by abaddonwormwood on Jan 12, 2009 0:37:28 GMT -9
Oh a have a trap deck of cards for dungeons for Savage Worlds that should port into any other game. PDF I did for Wiggy third quarter last year.
Will aim to post a page somewhere for you to look at later.
Lord Abaddon of Wormwood
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Post by boromirandkermit on Jan 12, 2009 2:28:23 GMT -9
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Post by tonsha on Jan 12, 2009 4:53:59 GMT -9
That's a FANTASTIC card!! Who did that dungeon tile? It's beautiful!!!! Seriously, this is amazing work. Great job BaK. This reminds me of something: doesn't SGD have certain types of terrain? Isn't there a poisonous fungus or something? Could do that as a 'special' tile or as a top-down terrain piece. I take it you would like the other images ASAP? DaveA |
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Post by kane on Jan 12, 2009 7:24:17 GMT -9
I would recommend putting side supports on the doors as well as a base. Make things stand up better. Also thinking I may put magnets on the tiles and washers/flex-steel on the props to keep everything REALLY in place. Use them on the figures too and...
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Post by godofrandomness on Jan 12, 2009 17:56:45 GMT -9
I want to try printing out some tiles on inkjet compatable magnetic paper and see how that works. It could be breat with 3D props and doors, and even minis, if a little metal is placed on the bottom of the pieces, at least in theory.
I know the paper can get a little expensive, but might be worth it.
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Post by tonsha on Jan 13, 2009 3:56:40 GMT -9
Hello everyone. Just a bit more progress to report. Stairs going down... and stairs going up...  DaveA |
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Post by boromirandkermit on Jan 13, 2009 5:23:11 GMT -9
The stairs look fantastic Tonsha!
Great work as always.
Ben.
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Post by kane on Jan 13, 2009 7:16:55 GMT -9
Very nicely done. Have you thought about maybe some 3D stairs? At least going up. I have the old Microtactix dungeon and one of the coolest things they did was have each tile on a 1" riser so that you could actually have pit traps and stairs down. Their design was a bit unweildy, but that was the early days of paper scenery. I can think of all sorts of ways to make it work now.
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Post by josedominguez on Jan 13, 2009 9:22:12 GMT -9
I want to try printing out some tiles on inkjet compatable magnetic paper and see how that works. It could be breat with 3D props and doors, and even minis, if a little metal is placed on the bottom of the pieces, at least in theory. I know the paper can get a little expensive, but might be worth it. I've tried this...... it's not so good as the printable surface isn't as 'magnetic' as the underside (with the sheets I used anyway). But If you want to hold dungeon tiles down on a magnetic table this is great. What works better is to print onto steel paper and attach magnetic bases to the minis and scenery elements. Jim would know better as to whether the stronger magnetic sheeting can ovecome this. I'd assume that if you used it the printout would need to be glued onto it, as any decent strentgh magnetic sheet is unlikely to be printer compatible. I've only used the medium strength stuff.. the kind you use to hold temporary signs and vehicle L plates etc... I think steel paper and heavy duty magnetic bases would probably be best. |
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Post by josedominguez on Jan 13, 2009 9:25:20 GMT -9
That's a FANTASTIC card!! Who did that dungeon tile? It's beautiful!!!! Seriously, this is amazing work. Great job BaK. This reminds me of something: doesn't SGD have certain types of terrain? Isn't there a poisonous fungus or something? Could do that as a 'special' tile or as a top-down terrain piece. I take it you would like the other images ASAP? DaveA there's a few different special terrains..... cursed areas, vampire soil, sleep moss, fountain of youth, teleport patches, pentacles to name but a few. The defender usualy gets to pick which to place. But adding them to the random deck would be brilliant |
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Post by tonsha on Jan 13, 2009 9:44:25 GMT -9
Lots of great ideas here! Thanks for your continued input. kane: I'm going to concentrate on the top-down tiles for the moment. I have a history of starting projects and not finishing them. I'm going to look at 3D bits as a second phase. josedominguez: Thanks for this! I'll try and duplicate these terrain types on the tiles. Cheers!! DaveA |
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Post by kane on Jan 13, 2009 10:12:35 GMT -9
Lots of great ideas here! Thanks for your continued input. kane: I'm going to concentrate on the top-down tiles for the moment. I have a history of starting projects and not finishing them. I'm going to look at 3D bits as a second phase. josedominguez: Thanks for this! I'll try and duplicate these terrain types on the tiles. Cheers!! DaveA I hear ya. Sounds like a good plan. Can't wait to see the final product! |
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Post by abaddonwormwood on Jan 13, 2009 10:26:10 GMT -9
Oh Tonsha if only I had waited for three more weeks....
I put down about $50AUD on Empty Room Tiles because they are the best on the market at the moment.
Needless to say I had not seen your set at that time. Fantastic work there old boy!
Shacking up with Ben to make cards for these tiles might be a very smart way to go as it adds another dimension to them. *Stage whisper* Do you think we might get him (Ben) to make some treasure & Events cards for this?
Lord Abaddon of Wormwood
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Post by tonsha on Jan 13, 2009 13:31:48 GMT -9
Shucks - I missed out on 50 bucks!! Never mind AWW - when these are ready, you can have them for free (or 'for nowt' as we say up north). In the meantime, here's where I'm up to on the door.  It's a bit messy at the bottom. But I'll clean that up. This is basically the bump map for the finished thing. And I need to do the actual door 'frame'. At very least an arch. Quick question for Jim: I'd like to put a nice skull with Bat Wings (yes - I've seen the Warhammer Quest doorways) on the door lintel. Would it be OK to trace some of your stuff? I'm thinking of the sceptre top from one of the Skeleton Command figures. I'll adjust it slightly so it doesn't look identical, and give you full credit. It would also make the whole thing work better with your figures! ;D ;D Anyway, at the moment I'm thinking of producing 'swap outs'. Doorways WITH doors, and empty doorways. This is basically how Heroquest does it. Admittedly HQ uses a plastic base, and then you put the full/empty doorway in. I could do that with Jim-style bases, but what's the point? Just make both with a base and just swap them out. Less fiddling. I did think of doorway sleeves with slide in doors. I like this idea from the point of view of randomising doors. Put the doors in an opaque draw bag and take the next door out of the bag when you need it. Is it broken? Is it wooden? Metal? Pick one and see! But this is much more complicated. I really need to think about it a bit more. DaveA |
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